In my short time as a pro-Palestine advocate ( 1 year) I have had numerous in depth unpleasant discussions with Zionists regarding the senseless war in Gaza.
I generally try to stay out of these things, or be short and concise if I comment at all. But one of the questions you asked stuck in my head, so here goes:
I generally don't talk to Zionists, I don't really know any, I know one pro-Israel person, but even she is quick to condemn stunts like the exploding pagers(To support Netanyahu is to be truly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish anyway.) But the question, you pose and the possibility you raise are key here. I've argued with actual Nazis, white supremacists not because it was fun but because I was in prison. Some can be reasoned with, others not so.
That being said the question and hypothesis here "....Was probably even partially caused by Israel itself if you look at the Hannibal Doctrine which was implemented by Israel on October 7th. At least I never concerned myself with any Middle Eastern issues prior to Oct 7th…Did you?"
I don't know why Hamas did that, instead of attempting a prison break, or hitting military targets. I don't know why it happened at a convenient time for Netanyahu politically, although I doubt he actually made it happen. I don't know why some of the demographic that bore the brunt of the attack were those least like to be supportive of Netanyahu, and the "Ultra-Orthodox"
Webster Griffin Tarpley Author of "9-11 Synthetic Terror :Made in the USA" (Tree of Life Books 2005) A "truther book," which like most conspiracy books is a mixture of facts, speculation, and claims made with absolutely nothing to corroborate them, nonetheless came up with two useful acronyms: and MIHOP. "Made It Happen On Purpose" vs LIHOP "Let It Happen On Purpose". Why did Netanyahu finance HAMAS to the tune of billions yearly, with one installment delivered in US hundred dollar bills? Why, whatever the intent and motivation was, did Hamas play right into Netanyahu's hands. They may win yet, in fact an argument can be made they have already won, in the sense of destroying the Zionist project in the eyes of the world, and in the views of Israeli intellectuals, human rights activists, and even families of hostages. I don't claim to know the answer to these questions and the others that arise from them. One source, ardently anti-Zionist still said "several intelligence agencies could have been involved, but we'll never know..." Does that mean that these questions should not be asked? Jews and Palestinians must stand together against this war that could damage or destroy both tribes and nations, all for the hate filled and megalomaniacal aspirations, of war criminals visible out in the open, but also persons unknown.
Hi- I never purposely seek out Zionists but they are provoked into verbally attacking most of the points I make both here and on Facebook. I had about 5 Jewish friends before I started posting my pro- Palestine stuff on FB- None them are talking to me anymore- I think they must have not been true friends. I have never confronted a Zionist in person- just responded to their obnoxious comments.
As far as Netinyahu’s motives I believe Oct 7th was actually welcomed by him secretly as it : 1) gave him an excuse to steal more land from the Palestinians under the guise of protecting Israel, 2) gave him an excuse to slaughter and starve Gazan’s and either kill many and make their continued occupancy in Gaza so terrible they would leave to other Arab countries so Israel could take their land permanently & establish Israeli settlements in Gaza, & 3) save his neck from the pre-existing fraud charges against him & keep his power going as long as the war goes on.
He has spelled out his plan for a Greater Larger Israel already with the Gazans gone. Gaza is nothing more than a brutal land- grab. I heard the Zionists were already selling each other land ( which is in Gaza) for the “Day After“ new Israeli settlements .
I believe why he funded Hamas is so he could keep the Palestinians from acquiring Statehood- so long as they were ruled by a “terror group” . The West Bank was ruled by essentially a puppet government ( the PA) the Palestinians could never attain statehood & would never be legitimized - keeping the brutal occupation going & its Apartheid rule over the Palestinians in place . I like your LIHOP acronym. Many reports indicate Netanyahu knew or suspected Oct 7th happen but did not prevent it as it fit well with his long standing goal of getting rid of the Palestinians. Hamas, did not anticipate this long brutal response from Israel based on the length of past hostilities which usually lasted a week or 2. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 😊
Also forgot- Hams attacked when it did to stop the US agreement whereby the Saudi’s would sign a treaty with Israel which ignores the Apartheid occupation and left Palestinians suffering ignored by the world. They attacked like they did to make the world notice their plight. They are willing to sacrifice civilians as they are considered martyrs for a greater purpose if they are Palestinian or the enemy oppressors if they are Israeli. Either way civilians paid the price on both sides. But look up “the Hannibal Directive “ under Wikipedia- it’s very eye opening & makes you see Oct 7th in a new light.
-Yes, it definitely torpedoed the Orwellian "Abraham Accords," which is why I doubt that the MIHOP scenario applied here. However considering how precarious Netanyahu's position was at the time, the LIHOP seems possible, even likely. I still think Hamas would have done better do strike government and military targets, which seems to be what Iran and Hezbollah are doing in spite of the IDFs actions against civilians in southern Lebanon. There was already a growing protest movement in the US before the attack. Martyring oneself for a cause is honorable, martyring those who have entrusted you with their safety and protection not so.
People mourning their lost loved ones speak of them as having been "martyred," but this does not seem to lessen the anguish any less. We don't need more martyrs, anywhere in the world, but especially in Gaza.
-I did look at the "Hannibal Directive" (although if you are ever writing an article for a publication where it must be reviewed by and editor, don't quote Wikipedia; it's not allowed as a source by most) in this case I think that their description is accurate. I didn't know that's what it was called, but it is clear that Netanyahu's regard for the lives of Israeli soldiers or the hostages themselves is little or nil.
Before the 7th, Hamas only had 40% of the population supporting them. Of course it's more like 90% now; wars do tend to pull a people together behind their leaders, which is why "leaders" love war so much. " Now Hamas actually are "Resistance Fighters," and to their credit, they released many of the Elderly and Children taken as hostages fairly quickly; apparently that was not part of the plan and was done by other groups, or by uninformed citizens who spontaneously joined the fight. Reports on conditions of confinement varied but some of the elderly women actually shook hands with their former captors before being swapped for Palestinian prisoners. Again, why not a prison break? Word has it that the Communist Party of Israel has called for an end to Israel as "The Jewish State" (my source does not wish to be named for obvious reasons) And yes, as Chomsky has pointed out, Israel has a long history of supporting fundamentalist groups to prevent more sophisticated left-nationalist movements from gaining power, groups that could actually work with the hard left in Israel to end the oppression.
I'll leave it off at that, this rabbit hole goes down a long way. "In war, truth is the first casualty."
Excellent observations, my understanding of the “why not a prison break for Hamas? Is because where would they escape to? Israel is an oppressive military Apartheid state. Should they have abandoned their lands and run to other Arab countries- in which case Israel succeeded in its land theft. Should they have protested peacefully? They tried numerous times and were ignored while IDF soldiers shot at the protestors in the knee caps. Should they have raised the oppressive Apartheid rule to the UN? The US vetoed any pro-Palestinian resolution. Should they have reported their horrible Apartheid rule to the press? It is mostly a pro- Israel propaganda machine controlled by Zionists which silenced any Pro-Palestinian speech as “antisemitism.” If Oct 7th happened in a military base, it would not have gotten the press it did & Israel could cover it up much like it is currently covering up the real damage it has sustained in the military bases from Iran & Hezbollah today. Israel and the US gave Hamas no choices other than total surrender and permanent Apartheid subjugation or some atrocity like October 7th.
(I was thinking just removal of Palestinian prisoners from an Israeli prison would have been good, not escape from the war zone itself, and the open-air prison. Right now though there really is nowhere to go at all.
Great, helpful questions. I was so impressed when I was a visiting academic at Queen Mary, University of London, to see so many observant religious ppl, of Jewish and Muslim faith, talking, laughing, working and eating together. I saw an Imam and an Hassidic gentleman, walking to watch Spurs FC together. They were having a blast, making each other laugh, groaning at the same missed shots. Those same Hassidic ppl are in peace rallies in London every week. It was really moving. In Melbourne in the huge anti racist rallies held in the 90s when Pauline Hanson was first elected on a platform of hatred (she’s our Farage), the last people walking were two Jewish and Palestinian activists, and they each held the end of an Olive Branch curved between them. Behind them, their comrades held a banner. “If we can do it, what’s your problem?” One of the ironies is, the people who deface the holocaust museums and graves, are never Muslim. They’re always neonazis. Nazis. Who now are to stand with Zionists. Thanks for your work and solidarity. 🇵🇸❤️🔥🙏
Most of them are simply EVIL. The others are indoctrinated, brainwashed and deluded by the IOF, Government and their society "bubble" as a whole...
... Godless, evil ZIOnism has poisoned Judaism and hijacked it!
💯%
Hi Sadie,
I generally try to stay out of these things, or be short and concise if I comment at all. But one of the questions you asked stuck in my head, so here goes:
I generally don't talk to Zionists, I don't really know any, I know one pro-Israel person, but even she is quick to condemn stunts like the exploding pagers(To support Netanyahu is to be truly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish anyway.) But the question, you pose and the possibility you raise are key here. I've argued with actual Nazis, white supremacists not because it was fun but because I was in prison. Some can be reasoned with, others not so.
That being said the question and hypothesis here "....Was probably even partially caused by Israel itself if you look at the Hannibal Doctrine which was implemented by Israel on October 7th. At least I never concerned myself with any Middle Eastern issues prior to Oct 7th…Did you?"
I don't know why Hamas did that, instead of attempting a prison break, or hitting military targets. I don't know why it happened at a convenient time for Netanyahu politically, although I doubt he actually made it happen. I don't know why some of the demographic that bore the brunt of the attack were those least like to be supportive of Netanyahu, and the "Ultra-Orthodox"
Webster Griffin Tarpley Author of "9-11 Synthetic Terror :Made in the USA" (Tree of Life Books 2005) A "truther book," which like most conspiracy books is a mixture of facts, speculation, and claims made with absolutely nothing to corroborate them, nonetheless came up with two useful acronyms: and MIHOP. "Made It Happen On Purpose" vs LIHOP "Let It Happen On Purpose". Why did Netanyahu finance HAMAS to the tune of billions yearly, with one installment delivered in US hundred dollar bills? Why, whatever the intent and motivation was, did Hamas play right into Netanyahu's hands. They may win yet, in fact an argument can be made they have already won, in the sense of destroying the Zionist project in the eyes of the world, and in the views of Israeli intellectuals, human rights activists, and even families of hostages. I don't claim to know the answer to these questions and the others that arise from them. One source, ardently anti-Zionist still said "several intelligence agencies could have been involved, but we'll never know..." Does that mean that these questions should not be asked? Jews and Palestinians must stand together against this war that could damage or destroy both tribes and nations, all for the hate filled and megalomaniacal aspirations, of war criminals visible out in the open, but also persons unknown.
Hi- I never purposely seek out Zionists but they are provoked into verbally attacking most of the points I make both here and on Facebook. I had about 5 Jewish friends before I started posting my pro- Palestine stuff on FB- None them are talking to me anymore- I think they must have not been true friends. I have never confronted a Zionist in person- just responded to their obnoxious comments.
As far as Netinyahu’s motives I believe Oct 7th was actually welcomed by him secretly as it : 1) gave him an excuse to steal more land from the Palestinians under the guise of protecting Israel, 2) gave him an excuse to slaughter and starve Gazan’s and either kill many and make their continued occupancy in Gaza so terrible they would leave to other Arab countries so Israel could take their land permanently & establish Israeli settlements in Gaza, & 3) save his neck from the pre-existing fraud charges against him & keep his power going as long as the war goes on.
He has spelled out his plan for a Greater Larger Israel already with the Gazans gone. Gaza is nothing more than a brutal land- grab. I heard the Zionists were already selling each other land ( which is in Gaza) for the “Day After“ new Israeli settlements .
I believe why he funded Hamas is so he could keep the Palestinians from acquiring Statehood- so long as they were ruled by a “terror group” . The West Bank was ruled by essentially a puppet government ( the PA) the Palestinians could never attain statehood & would never be legitimized - keeping the brutal occupation going & its Apartheid rule over the Palestinians in place . I like your LIHOP acronym. Many reports indicate Netanyahu knew or suspected Oct 7th happen but did not prevent it as it fit well with his long standing goal of getting rid of the Palestinians. Hamas, did not anticipate this long brutal response from Israel based on the length of past hostilities which usually lasted a week or 2. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 😊
Also forgot- Hams attacked when it did to stop the US agreement whereby the Saudi’s would sign a treaty with Israel which ignores the Apartheid occupation and left Palestinians suffering ignored by the world. They attacked like they did to make the world notice their plight. They are willing to sacrifice civilians as they are considered martyrs for a greater purpose if they are Palestinian or the enemy oppressors if they are Israeli. Either way civilians paid the price on both sides. But look up “the Hannibal Directive “ under Wikipedia- it’s very eye opening & makes you see Oct 7th in a new light.
-Yes, it definitely torpedoed the Orwellian "Abraham Accords," which is why I doubt that the MIHOP scenario applied here. However considering how precarious Netanyahu's position was at the time, the LIHOP seems possible, even likely. I still think Hamas would have done better do strike government and military targets, which seems to be what Iran and Hezbollah are doing in spite of the IDFs actions against civilians in southern Lebanon. There was already a growing protest movement in the US before the attack. Martyring oneself for a cause is honorable, martyring those who have entrusted you with their safety and protection not so.
People mourning their lost loved ones speak of them as having been "martyred," but this does not seem to lessen the anguish any less. We don't need more martyrs, anywhere in the world, but especially in Gaza.
-I did look at the "Hannibal Directive" (although if you are ever writing an article for a publication where it must be reviewed by and editor, don't quote Wikipedia; it's not allowed as a source by most) in this case I think that their description is accurate. I didn't know that's what it was called, but it is clear that Netanyahu's regard for the lives of Israeli soldiers or the hostages themselves is little or nil.
Before the 7th, Hamas only had 40% of the population supporting them. Of course it's more like 90% now; wars do tend to pull a people together behind their leaders, which is why "leaders" love war so much. " Now Hamas actually are "Resistance Fighters," and to their credit, they released many of the Elderly and Children taken as hostages fairly quickly; apparently that was not part of the plan and was done by other groups, or by uninformed citizens who spontaneously joined the fight. Reports on conditions of confinement varied but some of the elderly women actually shook hands with their former captors before being swapped for Palestinian prisoners. Again, why not a prison break? Word has it that the Communist Party of Israel has called for an end to Israel as "The Jewish State" (my source does not wish to be named for obvious reasons) And yes, as Chomsky has pointed out, Israel has a long history of supporting fundamentalist groups to prevent more sophisticated left-nationalist movements from gaining power, groups that could actually work with the hard left in Israel to end the oppression.
I'll leave it off at that, this rabbit hole goes down a long way. "In war, truth is the first casualty."
Excellent observations, my understanding of the “why not a prison break for Hamas? Is because where would they escape to? Israel is an oppressive military Apartheid state. Should they have abandoned their lands and run to other Arab countries- in which case Israel succeeded in its land theft. Should they have protested peacefully? They tried numerous times and were ignored while IDF soldiers shot at the protestors in the knee caps. Should they have raised the oppressive Apartheid rule to the UN? The US vetoed any pro-Palestinian resolution. Should they have reported their horrible Apartheid rule to the press? It is mostly a pro- Israel propaganda machine controlled by Zionists which silenced any Pro-Palestinian speech as “antisemitism.” If Oct 7th happened in a military base, it would not have gotten the press it did & Israel could cover it up much like it is currently covering up the real damage it has sustained in the military bases from Iran & Hezbollah today. Israel and the US gave Hamas no choices other than total surrender and permanent Apartheid subjugation or some atrocity like October 7th.
(I was thinking just removal of Palestinian prisoners from an Israeli prison would have been good, not escape from the war zone itself, and the open-air prison. Right now though there really is nowhere to go at all.
Great, helpful questions. I was so impressed when I was a visiting academic at Queen Mary, University of London, to see so many observant religious ppl, of Jewish and Muslim faith, talking, laughing, working and eating together. I saw an Imam and an Hassidic gentleman, walking to watch Spurs FC together. They were having a blast, making each other laugh, groaning at the same missed shots. Those same Hassidic ppl are in peace rallies in London every week. It was really moving. In Melbourne in the huge anti racist rallies held in the 90s when Pauline Hanson was first elected on a platform of hatred (she’s our Farage), the last people walking were two Jewish and Palestinian activists, and they each held the end of an Olive Branch curved between them. Behind them, their comrades held a banner. “If we can do it, what’s your problem?” One of the ironies is, the people who deface the holocaust museums and graves, are never Muslim. They’re always neonazis. Nazis. Who now are to stand with Zionists. Thanks for your work and solidarity. 🇵🇸❤️🔥🙏
Thank you for your insightful comment. I ❤️to hear stories like this in our conflict filled world!
💯% I love your comment “we love the oppressed, but too late.” That seems so applicable here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts… 🇵🇸❤️🇵🇸
In my experience, chatbots are rarely used. ZIOnists just often act like pre-programmed robots!!!
Yes, the resistance in Poland, Jews, and non-Jews alike were thrown under the bus by Stalin and the allies simultaneously.